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There has been a big fuzz in the Omerta world since Brando announced he could ask for ID's when they suspect someone of cheating.
ReBorN posted some questions on Fingon and i spoke with Brando to get some clear answers.
The green parts are Brando statements taken from Omerta forums, the gray parts are questions from ReBorN. The log between me and Brando helps to answer some of the questions.
ReBorN posted some questions on Fingon and i spoke with Brando to get some clear answers.
The green parts are Brando statements taken from Omerta forums, the gray parts are questions from ReBorN. The log between me and Brando helps to answer some of the questions.
Brando: We might ask for that under certain specific circumstances, such as:
* If your account is frozen and we have strong grounds to suspect that you are cheating.
* If your account is frozen and we have strong grounds to suspect that you are cheating.
Question from ReBorN: Understood. But, will you share with us why you have these "strong grounds"? As it stands now, you do not share why someone is akilled on the grounds of scripting because it may reveal your methods on catching scripts. I can understand and agree with that. But, when it comes to giving you a copy of my real life ID, I would appreciate something a little more substantive other then "we just know". You have been wrong with akills in the past. Who is to say you wont be wrong with requesting ID from time to time? I would like to have some sort of guarantee that my ID is rightfully being requested and that I have a valid request to hand over my ID.
Brando: We are a membership based community and we reserve the right to ask for ID if we think that you are not playing fair.
Question from ReBorN: I dont believe I saw that right reserved in the disclaimer I agreed to when I registered for this game. Can you please point me in the right direction?
Brando: We would not use your ID for any purpose than to ID you.
Question from ReBorN: Obviously. I wouldnt expect you to come out and say you will be ordering 73 xboxs with my name for Christmas. ;)
Brando: *If you are asked for ID it will only be by an employee of the company.
* The company has to identify itself but that employee does not.
* The company has to identify itself but that employee does not.
Question from ReBorN: If I am asked to provide my ID, not only will I demand physical proof that the person is employed by your company, I also want proof that he/she is authorized by your company to solicit my ID. Furthermore, I will not hand over my ID to an IRC nick. I will demand the ID of the person I am providing my ID to in the event something inappropriate happens with my ID they can be help personally responsible.
And while we are on the topic regarding the transfer of ID, how am I supposed to provide the ID to you? Scanned copy via email? Hard copy via snail mail? Who will pay for postage?
And while we are on the topic regarding the transfer of ID, how am I supposed to provide the ID to you? Scanned copy via email? Hard copy via snail mail? Who will pay for postage?
Brando: We think that serious cheats will be thwarted by this move.
Question from ReBorN: How? How will having a copy of their RL ID prevent them from scripting? You will know who they are IRL, sure. But how will that stop them? Will you threaten them with legal action (as I suspect)?
Brando: We already busted a few for not responding to ingame messages from crew (your suggestion)
Question from ReBorN: Now this is an idea I LOVE! Bravo to you for this work. I think it is a wonderful non-invasive way to catch scripters!
Brando: We think that this is a simple matter. When you want to go into a bar you are asked for proof of your age. If you cannot prove your age you will be denied entry.
Question from ReBorN: Yes, true. But, I show my ID to a bouncer to gain entry. He checks my date of birth and only my date of birth. He does not verify my name or address (and in some cases, social security number). Furthermore, he does not photocopy my ID and store it in a filing cabinet. If you want to web chat and I can show parts of my ID, fine, then the bar analogy may hold water. But, while requesting I send a copy of my ID for you to store, this does not compare.
On another side note, do you have any concern about potentially requesting and/or storing personal ID of minors? Here in my country you can not do so without written consent of the minors parents. Any company soliciting personal ID of a minor for any reason can be sued. Are you not concerned about that? If you havent already, I strongly suggest you consult legal council to answer that question for you since there are quite some minors who do play this game.
Also, I dont know if this has ever been expressed but, exactly what is acceptable for ID? Only government issued ID? School ID? Birth certificate? Most minors may not posses ID. Hell, my own father doesnt have a drivers license so depending on what is acceptable for you he may not be able to provide acceptable ID to you.
On another side note, do you have any concern about potentially requesting and/or storing personal ID of minors? Here in my country you can not do so without written consent of the minors parents. Any company soliciting personal ID of a minor for any reason can be sued. Are you not concerned about that? If you havent already, I strongly suggest you consult legal council to answer that question for you since there are quite some minors who do play this game.
Also, I dont know if this has ever been expressed but, exactly what is acceptable for ID? Only government issued ID? School ID? Birth certificate? Most minors may not posses ID. Hell, my own father doesnt have a drivers license so depending on what is acceptable for you he may not be able to provide acceptable ID to you.
Brando: We hope for the support of honest players of Omerta.
Question from ReBorN: Im sorry, but without answering some VERY important questions above I can not support this measure. I am an honest player. By looking at my account you may not think so but, trust I intentionally keep my account with 0 friends and 0 sent messages. Ask Tavia, when I receive ingame mails I have her respond for me. But, back to my point. Without answers to these very important questions I can not support this.
Druden: If you don't cheat/hack their is nothing to worry about.
Question from ReBorN: I do not believe this. Accounts have been wrongfully akilled many times in the past. These accounts are not given any opportunity to defend themselves and are usually provided with the response of "we know 100% you were scripting. Case closed.". Obviously since there are still people scripting like crazy and there have been very little akills due to scripting then the admins do not have a 100% fool proof way to identify a scripted account. If they do not have a 100% fool proof way to identify scripted accounts then there is ALWAYS room for human error. So you can not rationally say you have nothing to worry about.
statements
sbanks • We might ask for that under certain specific circumstances, such as:
sbanks • * If your account is frozen and we have strong grounds to suspect that you are cheating.
sbanks • Understood. But, will you share with us why you have these "strong grounds"? As it stands now, you do not share why someone is akilled on the grounds of scripting because it may reveal your methods on catching scripts. I can understand and agree with that. But, when it comes to giving you a copy of my real life ID, I would appreciate something a little more substantive other then "we just know". Y
sbanks • ou have been wrong with akills in the past. Who is to say you wont be wrong with requesting ID from time to time? I would like to have some sort of guarantee that my ID is rightfully being requested and that I have a valid request to hand over my ID.
Brando • Okay
Brando • As tough as it may sound: that is hard luck (with respect to the first point about RL ID)
Brando • Unfortunately there is an opportunity to cheat/get caught/ refuse to cooperate until we share our cheat busting methodology
sbanks • al right
Brando • We have been wrong with akills in the past - really not often. One of the things which precipitated my taking over cheat busting in 2008 August was Oyaji's big fuckup with some rather flaccid and ill-thought out cheat busting which turned out to be quite simply people with the 'wrong browser' (as far as he was concerned)
Brando • But when it comes to OTHER busts of scripts we have not been wrong
Brando • we don't make guesses.
sbanks • oki next question
sbanks • We are a [i]membership based community[/i] and we reserve the right to ask for ID if we think that you are not playing fair.
sbanks • I dont believe I saw that right reserved in the disclaimer I agreed to when I registered for this game. Can you please point me in the right direction?
Brando • I think we updated it. Everyone accepts it in principle when they log in
sbanks • ow thats so?
sbanks • don't we have to like re-agree or so?
sbanks • because we didnt got an option stated
Brando • You should make yourselves aware of what is in the disclaimer in case it changes
Brando • we won't take responsibility for that
Brando • but
Brando • lets not mince words
Brando • we changed our policy
Brando • and we changed the disclaimer
Brando • We should perhaps consider making everyone accept that again.
Brando • I should also add
Brando • it does not say in the disclaimer that 'we won't change any of the disclaimer' any more than it says 'we will not ever ask you to ID yourselves'
sbanks • i think this is a big thing, i regged for example.. a year ago, and then such a big thing as ID sending gets added in it, maybe i dont agree, and dont want to play anymore or so.. could be a popup on next login? agree/disagree at disagree, accounts get removed?
Brando • Sure we could
Brando • But I hasten to add
Brando • we are just not insisting that ordinary players ID themselves
Brando • we have no plan to use that on its own to track down cheats
Brando • we will simply reserve the right to ask a player to ID themselves if we think that is appropriate
Brando • If Bin Laden was playing Omerta I would ask for his ID and address
sbanks • you do? by law i mean?
Brando • Sure we may ask 'by law' for a person to identify themselves
Brando • we are NOT insisting on ID documents by doing so
Brando • Don't forget that if we suspect an account of cheating we may exclude it anyway
Brando • this is simply a way of avoiding that!
sbanks • here in .nl, we don't even have to show our ID to a cop if you are just walking and he suddenly asks for it, only if you are in violation, he asks, you have to show, its with privacy and stuff
sbanks • but on the other hand.. asking is free ofcourse
Brando • You mean it is permitted?
Brando • Yes you mean that a cop cannot insist on seeing ID
Brando • that is correct
Brando • Actually I agree with that as well
Brando › supposes he will be accused of double-standards
Brando • But in this event I am working hard to try to protect everyone's interests
Brando • IMHO
Brando • except organised cheats
Brando • and again I hasten to add that we won't be using this to bust run-off-the-mill cheats
Brando • *usually*
Brando › is not going to tie his own hands either
sbanks • but ofc there is a diffrence in storing the id's and just showing the id
Brando • Lets try to put this point to bed
Brando • We are NOT 'asking for ID' we MAY ask a player under strong suspicion of harming our interests as a business to identify him or herself
Brando • There IS a difference
Brando • You won't find Omeerta employees demanding ID or copies thereof
Brando • and you won't find Omerta crew even asking
sbanks • ye ok, and how you plan on doing that? they show via a webcam?
sbanks • or you want an actually scan
Brando • (unless the crew member is an OG Ltd employee like Bramblerose and I)
Brando • No
Brando • We leave it in the hands of the player
Brando • I would not presume to guess how they will satisfy the request to identify their real person
Brando • Lets be very clear here
sbanks • i also read something about storing them in the omerta office
Brando • Not from us I hope
Brando › goes to .com to check
sbanks • aw
sbanks • was in brambles post
Brando • Yes it does say something like that
sbanks • but is edited it
sbanks • but she*
Brando • But again it does NOT say that this refers to actual copies of ID documents
Brando • it just says 'ID'
Brando • if I had written that post I may well have written that differently
sbanks • original post was:
sbanks • Those ID's won't be saved on a server/ email accounts but in a closed file in the office. (NOTE: to get access to our office you need to pass 2 security codes during office hours and 3 outside office hours, so we keep those ID's on a save place!)
Brando • I shall edit it for clarity
Brando • Yes
Brando • I just read it. She was clearly telling the player base that the storage of anything offered to us would be safe
Brando • And she is STILL not saying that we are demanding official ID documentation
sbanks • true true
sbanks • but still storing
Brando › would *really* like the interviewer to register the distinction, now offered several times
Brando • storing copies of volunteered documents
sbanks • again true
sbanks • but you say you leave it to the player how to identify him/herself
sbanks • what would be a good way?
sbanks • and is a id of the local soccer/football club good enough? or is it more like a driver license or actualy passport
Brando • I also said that I would not presume to know how a player we asked to identify his or herself might go about that
Brando • How would you do it?
Brando • I would offer a copy of my passport
Brando • I cannot give you a list of acceptable documents because I don't have such a list
Brando • sbanks?
sbanks • ye im thinking
Brando › loves thinking and does it all the time
sbanks • me 2, my head hurts because of it most of the times :p
sbanks • for a game.. its a game ofc, i dont know if i would provide an ID anyway
sbanks • when i register for a new course on school.. or something then sure
sbanks • something big/important
sbanks • but for a game
Brando • :) head hurts comment - forgive me
sbanks • but thats ofcourse something you maybe even want.. you dont have to show it.. then we just akill you
Brando • I hope that we are not that ruthless
sbanks • that swifty aka swiffer
sbanks • who got akilled
sbanks • he failed providing id, he got akilled
Brando • That is quite correct
Brando • but in his case of course we knew that he is the creator of the (rather lame) swiffer script
Brando • and we understand that he does that for financial gain (don't they all)
Brando • And HE understands that he may not do that under EU law
Brando • we are protected by the Lisbon treaty
sbanks • uhu
Brando • Now I don't like the EU or the Lisbon treaty any more than I like 'stop and search'
Brando • but I am an employer and I pay wages
Brando • I have been unable to keep up with normal inflation on wages because of parasites like him
Brando • Now ask me if I want *his* real ID...
Brando › glowers
sbanks • :D
sbanks • i know how some scripts work, but i doubt he has financial gain of it.. i do think so though
sbanks • but i know he hires typers from india or china whatever
Brando • Yes
sbanks • so and also another thing, i know its just to annoy the players, as you said, but what if they id theirself? then no akill?
Brando • That depends entirely on the nature of the offence
sbanks • you ask when you think someone scripts/scriptmaker right?
Brando • We may consider it as a way of extending clemency
Brando • A scriptmaker will go straight to the pillory but then lets get real not one of those guys is going to give us real ID, are they?
Brando • I mean... I will *ask*
Brando • ...
Brando • Know what I am saying?
sbanks • yup ofc
sbanks • would be suicide :p
Brando › does not approve of suicide in-game or otherwise
Brando • (unless there is a serious and dehabilitating incurable medical condition)
Brando • ('being the boss of Omerta' would not count)
sbanks • 5. If you are asked for ID it will only be by an employee of the company.
sbanks • 6. The company has to identify itself but that employee does not.
Brando • Yes both is true
sbanks • If I am asked to provide my ID, not only will I demand physical proof that the person is employed by your company, I also want proof that he/she is authorized by your company to solicit my ID. Furthermore, I will not hand over my ID to an IRC nick. I will demand the ID of the person I am providing my ID to in the event something inappropriate happens with my ID they can be help personally responsible.
Brando • No probs
Brando • Anyone may do that#
sbanks • And while we are on the topic regarding the transfer of ID, how am I supposed to provide the ID to you? Scanned copy via email? Hard copy via snail mail? Who will pay for postage?
Brando • We would cooperate fully :)
Brando • Postage is less than a DC... come on...
Brando • I suppose that is not financial hardship
Brando • in principle I would be prepared to reimburse any costs
Brando • I think it perhpas of marginal interest to your readers
sbanks • its basicly.. we ask for it.. because we can.. you dont have 2 provide.. and if you do, its all voluntary
Brando • Of course
Brando • that was perhaps less apparent than should have been in the original news post
sbanks • and everyone may ask for an ID, you dont have to show it. like the cop example we had earlier
Brando • I think I have been very clear on that point several times now
sbanks • * If your account is frozen and we have strong grounds to suspect that you are cheating.
sbanks • Understood. But, will you share with us why you have these "strong grounds"? As it stands now, you do not share why someone is akilled on the grounds of scripting because it may reveal your methods on catching scripts. I can understand and agree with that. But, when it comes to giving you a copy of my real life ID, I would appreciate something a little more substantive other then "we just know". Y
sbanks • ou have been wrong with akills in the past. Who is to say you wont be wrong with requesting ID from time to time? I would like to have some sort of guarantee that my ID is rightfully being requested and that I have a valid request to hand over my ID.
Brando • Okay
Brando • As tough as it may sound: that is hard luck (with respect to the first point about RL ID)
Brando • Unfortunately there is an opportunity to cheat/get caught/ refuse to cooperate until we share our cheat busting methodology
sbanks • al right
Brando • We have been wrong with akills in the past - really not often. One of the things which precipitated my taking over cheat busting in 2008 August was Oyaji's big fuckup with some rather flaccid and ill-thought out cheat busting which turned out to be quite simply people with the 'wrong browser' (as far as he was concerned)
Brando • But when it comes to OTHER busts of scripts we have not been wrong
Brando • we don't make guesses.
sbanks • oki next question
sbanks • We are a [i]membership based community[/i] and we reserve the right to ask for ID if we think that you are not playing fair.
sbanks • I dont believe I saw that right reserved in the disclaimer I agreed to when I registered for this game. Can you please point me in the right direction?
Brando • I think we updated it. Everyone accepts it in principle when they log in
sbanks • ow thats so?
sbanks • don't we have to like re-agree or so?
sbanks • because we didnt got an option stated
Brando • You should make yourselves aware of what is in the disclaimer in case it changes
Brando • we won't take responsibility for that
Brando • but
Brando • lets not mince words
Brando • we changed our policy
Brando • and we changed the disclaimer
Brando • We should perhaps consider making everyone accept that again.
Brando • I should also add
Brando • it does not say in the disclaimer that 'we won't change any of the disclaimer' any more than it says 'we will not ever ask you to ID yourselves'
sbanks • i think this is a big thing, i regged for example.. a year ago, and then such a big thing as ID sending gets added in it, maybe i dont agree, and dont want to play anymore or so.. could be a popup on next login? agree/disagree at disagree, accounts get removed?
Brando • Sure we could
Brando • But I hasten to add
Brando • we are just not insisting that ordinary players ID themselves
Brando • we have no plan to use that on its own to track down cheats
Brando • we will simply reserve the right to ask a player to ID themselves if we think that is appropriate
Brando • If Bin Laden was playing Omerta I would ask for his ID and address
sbanks • you do? by law i mean?
Brando • Sure we may ask 'by law' for a person to identify themselves
Brando • we are NOT insisting on ID documents by doing so
Brando • Don't forget that if we suspect an account of cheating we may exclude it anyway
Brando • this is simply a way of avoiding that!
sbanks • here in .nl, we don't even have to show our ID to a cop if you are just walking and he suddenly asks for it, only if you are in violation, he asks, you have to show, its with privacy and stuff
sbanks • but on the other hand.. asking is free ofcourse
Brando • You mean it is permitted?
Brando • Yes you mean that a cop cannot insist on seeing ID
Brando • that is correct
Brando • Actually I agree with that as well
Brando › supposes he will be accused of double-standards
Brando • But in this event I am working hard to try to protect everyone's interests
Brando • IMHO
Brando • except organised cheats
Brando • and again I hasten to add that we won't be using this to bust run-off-the-mill cheats
Brando • *usually*
Brando › is not going to tie his own hands either
sbanks • but ofc there is a diffrence in storing the id's and just showing the id
Brando • Lets try to put this point to bed
Brando • We are NOT 'asking for ID' we MAY ask a player under strong suspicion of harming our interests as a business to identify him or herself
Brando • There IS a difference
Brando • You won't find Omeerta employees demanding ID or copies thereof
Brando • and you won't find Omerta crew even asking
sbanks • ye ok, and how you plan on doing that? they show via a webcam?
sbanks • or you want an actually scan
Brando • (unless the crew member is an OG Ltd employee like Bramblerose and I)
Brando • No
Brando • We leave it in the hands of the player
Brando • I would not presume to guess how they will satisfy the request to identify their real person
Brando • Lets be very clear here
sbanks • i also read something about storing them in the omerta office
Brando • Not from us I hope
Brando › goes to .com to check
sbanks • aw
sbanks • was in brambles post
Brando • Yes it does say something like that
sbanks • but is edited it
sbanks • but she*
Brando • But again it does NOT say that this refers to actual copies of ID documents
Brando • it just says 'ID'
Brando • if I had written that post I may well have written that differently
sbanks • original post was:
sbanks • Those ID's won't be saved on a server/ email accounts but in a closed file in the office. (NOTE: to get access to our office you need to pass 2 security codes during office hours and 3 outside office hours, so we keep those ID's on a save place!)
Brando • I shall edit it for clarity
Brando • Yes
Brando • I just read it. She was clearly telling the player base that the storage of anything offered to us would be safe
Brando • And she is STILL not saying that we are demanding official ID documentation
sbanks • true true
sbanks • but still storing
Brando › would *really* like the interviewer to register the distinction, now offered several times
Brando • storing copies of volunteered documents
sbanks • again true
sbanks • but you say you leave it to the player how to identify him/herself
sbanks • what would be a good way?
sbanks • and is a id of the local soccer/football club good enough? or is it more like a driver license or actualy passport
Brando • I also said that I would not presume to know how a player we asked to identify his or herself might go about that
Brando • How would you do it?
Brando • I would offer a copy of my passport
Brando • I cannot give you a list of acceptable documents because I don't have such a list
Brando • sbanks?
sbanks • ye im thinking
Brando › loves thinking and does it all the time
sbanks • me 2, my head hurts because of it most of the times :p
sbanks • for a game.. its a game ofc, i dont know if i would provide an ID anyway
sbanks • when i register for a new course on school.. or something then sure
sbanks • something big/important
sbanks • but for a game
Brando • :) head hurts comment - forgive me
sbanks • but thats ofcourse something you maybe even want.. you dont have to show it.. then we just akill you
Brando • I hope that we are not that ruthless
sbanks • that swifty aka swiffer
sbanks • who got akilled
sbanks • he failed providing id, he got akilled
Brando • That is quite correct
Brando • but in his case of course we knew that he is the creator of the (rather lame) swiffer script
Brando • and we understand that he does that for financial gain (don't they all)
Brando • And HE understands that he may not do that under EU law
Brando • we are protected by the Lisbon treaty
sbanks • uhu
Brando • Now I don't like the EU or the Lisbon treaty any more than I like 'stop and search'
Brando • but I am an employer and I pay wages
Brando • I have been unable to keep up with normal inflation on wages because of parasites like him
Brando • Now ask me if I want *his* real ID...
Brando › glowers
sbanks • :D
sbanks • i know how some scripts work, but i doubt he has financial gain of it.. i do think so though
sbanks • but i know he hires typers from india or china whatever
Brando • Yes
sbanks • so and also another thing, i know its just to annoy the players, as you said, but what if they id theirself? then no akill?
Brando • That depends entirely on the nature of the offence
sbanks • you ask when you think someone scripts/scriptmaker right?
Brando • We may consider it as a way of extending clemency
Brando • A scriptmaker will go straight to the pillory but then lets get real not one of those guys is going to give us real ID, are they?
Brando • I mean... I will *ask*
Brando • ...
Brando • Know what I am saying?
sbanks • yup ofc
sbanks • would be suicide :p
Brando › does not approve of suicide in-game or otherwise
Brando • (unless there is a serious and dehabilitating incurable medical condition)
Brando • ('being the boss of Omerta' would not count)
sbanks • 5. If you are asked for ID it will only be by an employee of the company.
sbanks • 6. The company has to identify itself but that employee does not.
Brando • Yes both is true
sbanks • If I am asked to provide my ID, not only will I demand physical proof that the person is employed by your company, I also want proof that he/she is authorized by your company to solicit my ID. Furthermore, I will not hand over my ID to an IRC nick. I will demand the ID of the person I am providing my ID to in the event something inappropriate happens with my ID they can be help personally responsible.
Brando • No probs
Brando • Anyone may do that#
sbanks • And while we are on the topic regarding the transfer of ID, how am I supposed to provide the ID to you? Scanned copy via email? Hard copy via snail mail? Who will pay for postage?
Brando • We would cooperate fully :)
Brando • Postage is less than a DC... come on...
Brando • I suppose that is not financial hardship
Brando • in principle I would be prepared to reimburse any costs
Brando • I think it perhpas of marginal interest to your readers
sbanks • its basicly.. we ask for it.. because we can.. you dont have 2 provide.. and if you do, its all voluntary
Brando • Of course
Brando • that was perhaps less apparent than should have been in the original news post
sbanks • and everyone may ask for an ID, you dont have to show it. like the cop example we had earlier
Brando • I think I have been very clear on that point several times now